---
ai_generation_date: '2026-09-13'
ai_model: gemini-3-pro-preview
audiodharma:
  talks:
    - date: '2020-08-31'
      mp3_url: https://audiodharma.us-east-1.linodeobjects.com/talks/12038/20200831-Diana_Clark-IMC-influence.mp3
      speakers:
        - speaker_name: Diana Clark
          speaker_url: https://www.audiodharma.org/speakers/240
      talk_start_time_seconds: 0
      title: Influence
      url: https://www.audiodharma.org/talks/12038
      video_unavailable: false
location_city: Redwood City, CA
video_unavailable: false
youtube:
  id: bL-MyF9A6eY
  imprecise_upload_date: '2021-05-04'
  title: 'Dharma Talk: Influence'
  upload_date: null
  uploader_str: Insight Meditation Center
  uploader_url: https://www.youtube.com/@InsightMeditationCenter
youtube_url: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL-MyF9A6eY
---

# Influence - [Diana Clark](https://www.audiodharma.org/speakers/240)

_This is an AI-generated transcript from auto-generated subtitles for the video above. It likely contains inaccuracies, especially with speaker attribution if there are multiple speakers._

## [Influence](https://www.audiodharma.org/talks/12038)

So last weekend—I guess today's Monday, so it was even just yesterday—I was part of a teaching team where we taught a retreat online through the Insight Retreat Center, the retreat center that's associated here with IMC. Maybe I'll say that we're all a little amazed at how well these go in general. I know when we first started back in March, we thought we weren't so sure how this was going to work. But it turns out to work really beautifully, and it helps make the retreat experience and the Dharma available to all kinds of people that otherwise wouldn't be able to travel to be on retreat. To have the experience of practicing at home in that way can be really powerful—in the midst of your life, to take some days off for some intensive practice.

With these retreats at the IRC, there's a closing circle in which the retreatants have an opportunity to say a few words. What the retreat was like, some wisdom they'd like to share with others, or something impactful, whatever they would like. And so many people commented on how it was nice to practice with others. Keep in mind everybody, of course, is at home, and they're seeing others on Zoom in the little squares. But nevertheless, just this feeling, this recognition that, "Okay, we're doing this together... I'm not the only one," to feel that support.

On these retreats, we do group practice discussions. That is, there's a group of between five to seven people that meet with the teacher. The different practitioners share an experience they had or ask a question. It's an opportunity for them to interact with the teacher and get some guidance and support. It's not uncommon, for example, for the teacher to be saying something to a yogi[^1], and the other yogis who are listening to be nodding their heads and maybe even taking notes. Or they'll be doing this also when one practitioner is describing a question they have. There can be this almost a little bit of a delight, like, "Yeah, I have that question too," or, "Oh, this instruction that you're giving to this person makes sense for me too in this other situation that I didn't ask about." So these are ways that we influence and support one another, whether it's direct or indirect.

## Personal Experience with Influence

I'll say for me personally, being able to come to IMC regularly very early in my practice had a really big impact on me. Meeting people and making friends, and just coming to sit with a bunch of other people—sometimes when I felt like I wanted to jump up and run away, I didn't. I didn't, right, because I would have disturbed all the people around me.

Some of the people that I met there in my early days indirectly supported my going on retreats. At first, I felt like, "No way, I don't want to go on a retreat, why would I do that?" I had done one retreat in another tradition and it wasn't easy. Now I can admit that it was through some peer pressure that I felt like, "Okay, nobody said I had to, but everybody else is going on retreat, I guess I'll do it." And of course, it changed my life. It completely changed my life in such a beautiful way, and for that I'm grateful.

## The Buddha on Community and Friends

Of course, the Buddha recognized that people influence each other, either directly or indirectly. Maybe just by seeing what others are doing, or hearing them talk about experiences that they've had or questions that they've had. The actions that they're doing, or the things that they're not doing, influence us. This is partly—not the entire reason, but partly—why the Buddha established the monastic order. It is for people to live in community, and to live with others who are dedicated to practice, dedicated to meditation practice. Buddhism is much more than just a meditation practice; it is dedicated to living a life of ethics, pursuing and exploring wisdom, and investigating experience.

On this idea of supporting one another, there's this simile in the suttas[^2] that the Buddha gives. It goes like this: "Suppose"—that's often how similes start, with this word "suppose"—"suppose there were a high mountain not far from a village or town, and two friends would leave the village or town and approach the mountain hand in hand." I don't know, that little bit about "hand in hand" feels kind of tender for me; we don't see that so often in the suttas. It's clear that they're good friends, they care about one another or have a certain amount of familiarity or intimacy. I don't know if walking hand in hand back in ancient India was only something that romantic partners did, or if it was just something that good friends did, but nevertheless, they're walking hand in hand.

Having reached the mountain, one friend would remain below at the foot of the mountain while the other would climb to the top. Then the friend who remained below would say to the friend who stood on the top, "Well friend, what do you see standing at the top of the mountain?" And the friend on the top of the mountain replied—maybe he just called on his cell phone to the person at the bottom and said—"Standing on top of that mountain, I see lovely parks, lovely groves, lovely meadows, and lovely ponds." He just sees nature. He's using this word "lovely" to say maybe they're inviting, or maybe they are something he hadn't seen before. Maybe where they were coming from, their village, doesn't have the ponds and groves and meadows and parks.

Then the friend that's at the bottom of the mountain says, "That is impossible. It cannot happen that while standing on top of the mountain you should see lovely parks and groves and meadows and ponds." So then the friend that's on the top of the mountain comes down to the bottom, takes his friend by the arm, and together they climb to the top of the mountain. After giving him a few moments to catch his breath, the friend asks, "Well, now that you're standing on top of the mountain, what do you see?" And his friend replies, "I see lovely parks, groves, meadows, and ponds."

And the other friend says, "Well, just a little earlier, I heard you say it's impossible, but just now you are saying that you do see these lovely parks, groves, meadows, and ponds." And then the friend says, "Yes, but earlier I was obstructed by this high mountain. I did not see what there was to be seen."

Then the simile ends. In my mind, they're walking hand in hand down the mountain again. For me, there's something kind of tender about this. The person that could see, and the other person who said "No, it's impossible," didn't get in a big fight. They didn't argue about it. They didn't call each other names. They still address each other as friend. The person comes down the mountain and helps the person at the bottom of the mountain move to the top. I know when I told that story I used masculine pronouns; I intended to change them. As an aside, the suttas often use masculine pronouns. For Dharma talks, we'll revise them, and my apologies that I didn't. But we can imagine friends—just friends, their gender is not important.

They didn't get in an argument, and one didn't force the other to go up, or denigrate the other one. I didn't get the impression that the person that was at the bottom of the mountain needed a lot of coercion to go up to the top. Maybe they needed a little bit of help. Maybe they just needed a little bit of support. It's not that they were refusing to go. And then when this person that was at the bottom gets to the top, the other person waits for that person to catch their breath. Waiting until they're settled. Waiting until they're ready. Waiting until they're comfortable.

I love this reference to catching one's breath, because in some ways our meditation practice, especially when we're doing mindfulness of breathing, is about seeing or being with our breath, and being sensitive to what's happening with our breath. So it feels very respectful to wait and to ask, "What do you see?" This very warm-hearted feeling of one friend helping another to see what they couldn't see before.

## The Taming of the Mind

Another little story I'll tell about myself is that I mentioned how I went on retreat through a little bit of peer pressure. On that first retreat, Gil[^3] was the teacher, and it was at Hidden Villa. For those of you who have been around long enough, you know before we had IRC, we would rent this place called Hidden Villa and have retreats there. I was sitting near the back, and there was somebody that was sitting right in front of me. Andrea Fella[^4] was there too.

I don't remember what the teachings were or who the teachers were so much as I remember this: the person that was sitting in front of me sat still for the whole sit. At that time, I didn't even know that was possible. There was no way I could sit still for 45 minutes, multiple times during a day. At that time, my body just couldn't allow it, and my mind was restless. Now, of course, I can, and I do regularly do a lot of sitting. But this person that sat in front of me, who every time just came and very simply sat down and was steady—I would sometimes open my eyes and see this person still, steady, not moving—was so supportive for me. Even though sometimes I would shift my posture, just to know that it was possible. That one can do this, can be quiet and can be comfortable, or comfortable enough to do long sitting.

In some way, that person—I didn't even know them—was supporting me. Kind of like a friend helping me up the mountain to see what I couldn't see. Because, of course, the more I sat, the more still my mind became, and I was able to see things I couldn't see with the ordinary way that I am when I'm not on retreat.

When I read this simile about the two friends going up the mountain, I was imagining what their conversation was, what they were saying. We only know the question about "What do you see up at the top?" But in the same sutta which has the simile I just talked about, is another simile. It's about training, and it gives the simile of somebody who trains elephants, and how they kind of tame them. For me, I kind of like that word a little bit. On that first retreat for me, I felt like my body and my mind could use some taming, some kind of calming down.

In this simile, the Buddha is telling the story, and he says: "And then the elephant tamer addresses the elephant with words that are gentle, pleasing to the ear and lovable. With words that go to the heart, are courteous, desired by many and agreeable to many. And then when the elephant is addressed by such words, the elephant listens, gives ear, and applies their mind to understand." So in this way, he is not talking about admonishing, or yelling, or ridiculing, or threatening, but instead, is using words that are courteous, go to the heart, and are pleasing. Maybe that's the way in which people influence each other. This is the recognition that in order to influence others, of course, we don't have to use harsh language or inappropriate language.

## The Kalama Sutta and Discerning Influence

There are lots of ways in which people influence us indirectly and directly. Another well-known sutta, maybe even a famous sutta, talks about how others influence us, and this is the Kalama Sutta[^5]. I'm only going to talk about a small portion of this.

The sutta begins with the story of the people of Kalama. They have all these spiritual teachers who are coming through town. This was common at the time in ancient India; there would be philosophers or religious leaders that would travel, and they would come for alms perhaps, and give talks. As it happened with the Kalamas, a religious leader or philosopher would come and give a talk and denigrate everybody else. "Nobody else knows what they're talking about, I'm the only one that knows." And then they would leave eventually. And then the next philosopher or religious leader would show up and say, "I am the only one that has the truth, and I know how it really is, and everybody else is saying something that's wrong." Of course, they're saying something completely different from what the person before them said. And then they go, and then of course a third comes and does the same type of thing.

The Kalamas are saying, "You know, we're feeling a little bit confused. Who should we believe? What should we do? There's all these different leaders, philosophers, and religious leaders that show up." Here is the advice that the Buddha gives to the Kalamas:

"When you yourselves know these things are unskillful, these things are unwholesome, these things are blamable, these things are criticized by the wise, and when undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm—when you yourselves know this, abandon those things." And then he says the opposite: "When you yourselves know these things are skillful, not blamable, not criticized by the wise, and when undertaken and observed they don't lead to harm, then cultivate them."

One thing that's interesting here is that the Buddha doesn't even talk about philosophy or give religious teachings here. He's using something that's really pragmatic. If you know that it's blamable or criticized by the wise, then don't do it. If you know that it leads to harm, don't do it. If it's not blamable and not criticized, then cultivate it, develop it, if it doesn't lead to harm.

But one thing that's really interesting here is that it includes the idea of what other people are thinking, or what other people would do. If it's blamable, would you be blamed if you did this? Would the wise criticize you if you did this? So maybe the wise or others are not even there, but you bring to mind, "How would I feel if everybody knew I was doing this?" In this indirect way, a community can support us. "How would I feel, what would I do, if I knew that others knew about what I was doing, or knew what I had done?" Not in a way that we have to beat ourselves up for things that we've done that turned out not to be skillful or wise. The Buddha is offering criteria to help us find our way. When we do things, they always seem like good ideas when we do them, right? If they didn't, we wouldn't do them. So there's no need to retrospectively beat ourselves up or criticize ourselves for things.

But you might ask, "Who are the wise? Who are the ones that I'm going to think about who might criticize or who might blame?" There are a number of different definitions for what a wise person is in the suttas, but here, a wise person is sensible, learned, intelligent, knowledgeable, clear-headed, and clever. Notice it's not saying that they're absolutely 100% awakened. They're not saying that they are particular leaders necessarily. Maybe it's a friend. Maybe it's a good friend that will take you up to the top of the mountain to help you see what you can see. Maybe it's just elder members of the community, or people who have been practicing for a little bit longer. In my case, it was people who had more retreat experience, who knew the benefits and were going on retreats, and they had a big impact on me.

## Being Trainable and Tameable

To be sure, there are wise and less wise, shall we say, people in our community or that we have access to, or that we might be influenced by. Of course, there's the news media, and there's entertainment, and family, and friends. Just like the Kalamas who were saying, "There are these teachers that are coming through town and they're denigrating others, and they're saying things that perhaps we don't understand." The Kalamas didn't say that, but we might imagine that if they understood them, they wouldn't have come to the Buddha to ask him. So it's helpful for us to pay attention to what influences are helpful and which ones are not helpful. Which influences help us to do things that won't be criticized or won't be blamable.

Because to be sure, there are people, there are professions, whose job is to influence us, and maybe they don't care so much about our well-being. They want us to behave in particular ways, buy products, or click on certain things. It's not that they're bad people; it's just that the way our economy or our society is created, some people are trying to influence others.

Certainly, all of us—especially recently, just a few days ago I found myself always going to the news to see what the quality of the air is, and how the fires are here both in my community and where my extended family lives. Like, are they okay? But there's a way in which it can get a little bit unhelpful. It's helpful to know that the air quality is unhealthy for sensitive groups right now. It doesn't mean that we need to check it every 20 minutes. Can we just check it and recognize that it's helpful to have this information, until it's not? When are we leaning into what is not so helpful?

Something else about the wise that the Buddha says in the suttas is described as "those not sinking in mud." There's a passage that goes: "That one who is themselves sinking in mud should pull out another who is sinking in mud is impossible." I myself have never been in quicksand, but I believe that's true, right? "However, one who is not themselves sinking in mud could pull out another who is sinking in the mud. That is possible." So just a recognition that sometimes we are the ones that aren't sinking in the mud. Sometimes we're feeling support from somebody else who is not sinking in the mud.

Getting back to this simile of the two friends going up the mountain, and the simile of the elephant tamer who is training the elephant and speaks kind words to them. There's another element here: there are others who influence, and we can be influenced. But if we want to be trained, tamed, if we want things to be different, then we have to be trainable. We have to be tameable. And what does that mean? That means not always thinking that we know what's best. Not always thinking that others know what's best either. But having enough confidence to investigate, to inquire for ourselves in a practical way: Does this cause harm? Is this blamable?

Another way that we might not be trainable is that we're not really honest with ourselves. We're kind of fooling ourselves or trying to delude ourselves, like, "Yeah, yeah, I got that, I'm beyond that," or "I've been practicing for so long I don't need to listen to some of these other teachings." It might show up in lots of different ways in which we're just not open to hearing some teachings or hearing something that might be supportive for us. So once we recognize that we can be influenced, and that there are people who are wise and can help and support us, are we open? Are we open to receiving that?

## Reflections

May our practice together—whether it's by literally sitting together meditating, and if others know that you're meditating, or maybe they just know that you sometimes meditate, maybe that supports them. Or maybe your actions, the way that you're showing up in the world other than just meditating, supports others, and influences others in a way that helps them to find more freedom, helps them to find more ease and more peace.

So may our practice together... may we influence others in a positive way. And may we allow ourselves to be influenced and supported in a positive way. So that our practice together can be for the benefit of all beings everywhere.

Thank you.

---

[^1]: **Yogi:** In this context, a term commonly used in the Insight Meditation tradition to refer to a meditation practitioner on retreat.

[^2]: **Sutta:** A Pali word meaning a discourse or teaching of the Buddha.

[^3]: **Gil Fronsdal:** A prominent Insight Meditation teacher and the primary teacher at the Insight Meditation Center (IMC) in Redwood City, California.

[^4]: **Andrea Fella:** A co-teacher at the Insight Meditation Center (IMC) and a prominent Insight Meditation teacher.

[^5]: **Kalama Sutta:** A well-known teaching of the Buddha often cited for its emphasis on free inquiry, experiential validation, and avoiding blind faith in authority.