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To Listen

So, a story, a fable maybe that I'm fond of, that you might have heard from me before, is of a young woman, maybe a teenager, whose family moves for a year to a new country far from where they are. And it happens to be that there's a Buddhist monastery right near where they live. So the teenager walks in, curious about it, meets the abbess, and gets introduced to meditation. Lo and behold, the monastery has a Thursday evening meditation for the public. So she starts going to it and she learns to meditate during that year.

Then after a year, their family is going to go back to a place where there's no meditation, in their land there's no Buddhism, and so she goes to the abbess and asks her, "When I go back to my country, how do I continue my meditation training? How do I keep learning more?"

And the abbess said, "Well, when you go back to your place, ask around for the person who knows how to listen the best, the best listener in the community. And when you identify that person, go have them teach you how to listen, and that will teach you all you need to know for meditation."

There's something very closely associated with the ability to listen well with mindfulness. We say that vipassanā^[1] means clear seeing, and we can translate it to listening: that we're cultivating clear listening. And I suspect that most of you see more clearly than you listen, especially when you listen to other people speak. Some people don't really know how to listen. Some people, I get the sense, it never occurred to them to listen to someone else, to really listen, unless it was as a prompt to be able to speak and speak and speak.

And then we listen through the filter of our ideas, our feelings, our associations to people, our desires, our fears. There's a lot that's behind listening that is often invisible to us. But to listen well is to listen in both directions: to be able to listen clearly to what people are saying, and to listen clearly to what's going on inside.

What's the layer just beneath the words you hear from someone else? What is your inner speech? What are your inner thoughts and ideas, emotions and feelings? What's going on there?

And it's easy enough to sometimes be pulled into the conversation. The subject of the conversation, what you have to say, what the person is saying, almost blinds you from really having a clear self-awareness, a presence here. And the cost of that is that we don't listen well when we have a whole backlog or a background context of thoughts, reactions, and judgments that are going on, and we don't know we have them. We're kind of hearing through the filter of that background.

And it's not wrong to have a background, but all those thoughts and ideas and opinions you might have, desires and aversions, what we want to do in this practice is to know them and take them into account. And then if you really know them well and take them into account, you might decide a few of them just aren't needed, and you can put them aside. You know, "Let me be careful here. Let me listen without that filter. What happens if I can listen without any filters at all? Or maybe there's a more useful filter to listen by."

If you're listening to someone speak and something about what they said triggered some desire you have, they say, "I need to talk to a friend. I'm having a hard time. I recently went back to St. Louis, and it was hard, and I want to talk to someone to hear me as I talk." Well, St. Louis, this is where you met your childhood sweetheart, and that didn't go so well. And so you're listening to them, but really, you know, "Relationships are difficult. That relationship was difficult. And I don't know about this person now." It's a whole different world going on.

Maybe if you really know how much that's triggered in you, you say, "Wait a minute, my friend is suffering. What if I listen through the filter of that person's suffering? How will I listen? If I really want to know my friend, maybe I will have thoughts. Maybe I'll have questions. Maybe I'll be listening to what's behind the words. Maybe I'm listening to understand. Oh, they said X and Y. Does that mean Z? No, it means X, Y, and A for them. Wow, okay, so it's a bit more complicated than I thought, and let me listen and find out."

Sometimes we can change the lens through which we're listening in a way that's more beneficial, and sometimes we can drop a lot of the lenses and we can just listen clearly. And the same skill is what we're learning to do in meditation. We're learning to be present for ourselves.

Here, meditation is in some ways easier because with your eyes closed you are a little bit more internal. You might be a little bit more oriented towards what's going on in there. And that can mean one of two things. Ideally, it means that you see much more clearly what you're doing in there, and you're more likely to see what to be involved in, what to let go of. "Right now, I just want to be with my breathing. I don't need to think about high school sweethearts that didn't work out." And so you stay present.

Sometimes in conversation, it's so easy to lose ourselves in it that we don't really track ourselves that well. And we don't really track that we're spinning out into our thoughts and ideas. And maybe we even stop listening sometimes. I've been with people whom I saw in their eyes that I seemed to disappear. They were so involved in the conversation, like I felt I could move my hand in front of their eyes to let them know that I'm here. They were really absorbed into some kind of preoccupation, and maybe I've been that way too. Conversations are sometimes a place where people lose a lot of their mindfulness. And sometimes we do it in meditation as well.

But to listen well, I like to think that listening is celebrated or has an honored place in Buddhism. In ancient India, at the time of the Buddha, there was no AudioDharma. You couldn't just get your device out and listen to any talk you wanted to that had ever been given in the last 10 years. There were no books. There was nothing recorded. There were no libraries. Knowledge, information, religious teachings—it all went through oral transmission. Listening to someone speak, listening to someone chant, listening to someone tell a story, listening to someone singing. It was all through hearing that people learned about just about everything that is transmitted, like we do now with books and things like that.

And so when the Buddha was going to tell some people something really important in his teaching, he would preface it and say, "Okay, listen carefully. Listen carefully now." Because that was the vehicle, with the implication that there are ways of listening carefully and ways of listening casually or not carefully. "Be really present here. Now, this is important."

And it was particularly important back then because if someone had something really significant to say, really important to say, you couldn't go look it up later. You couldn't say, "Can you give me the reference?" and then go to the library. The only library that existed was in your own memory. So, you had to listen well enough not only to understand, but to let it sink in and be really present.

Well, 40 years ago, when I was a student at San Francisco Zen Center^[2], there was a venerable elder Buddhist teacher in the West who came to give a talk there. He came along with a senior student. He gave a nice talk to the Zen students, I don't remember what he said exactly, but then he turned to his student who'd been listening and asked the student to give a summary of what he just said. The custom of that teacher was that his students had to listen so carefully to what he said that at the end they'd have to be able to summarize it for everyone else. Wow, okay. Now you really have to listen. You really have to take it in.

You had to listen, you had to understand, and you had to memorize, which means you have to be actively engaged in a certain kind of way. And what you learn in being more active in listening that way is also sometimes what's needed to be mindful in meditation. And the art of meditation is how can you be deeply relaxed, at ease, but also really awake, really kind of energized in a certain way to really be present, without actively thinking you have to memorize anything, but so you can take it in deeply so that you would know later, "Oh, this is what happened."

And this is the way I was trained in mindfulness when I was first introduced to this practice in Burma. We were all told to have a little notebook. We would write field notes about what happened in our meditation on retreat. And it was really field notes. It was just really like, "My breathing was shallow. I noticed it. When I noticed it, it relaxed a little bit. It was still kind of shallow. I continued meditating. And then later I noticed that it had gotten really deep and quiet." There was never any commentary, no judgments, no story, no explanation, no why, just field notes.

And so when we meditated, we had to be alert enough to recognize what was happening so that we'd remember it to write it down later. And I found that it was really helpful for me. It created a kind of alertness, aliveness. I kind of delighted in this aliveness to go, "Oh, okay. You know what's happening here? Let me take it in. Let me feel it and be with it." And it protected me from a wandering mind. It took me away from that, because then I wouldn't have anything to say except "My mind wandered for 45 minutes," and that wasn't so good to tell the teacher. So just be present.

And so it turns out that the word sati^[3], the Pali word for mindfulness, has a secondary meaning, or is derived etymologically from a word that means memory, to remember. And I think it's such an important idea. To remember, I hope I get away with playing with the English language, to remember is to bring all the members back together. We're trying to be so present here and now that all of who we are gets to come back together and be part of the picture, be connected: our body, our emotions, our thoughts, and how we are with other people. Really, we recognize, "How am I with them? What's operating when I'm listening to someone else? Am I mostly afraid? Am I mostly concerned with my opinions?"

One of the ways that I have been training people at IMC^[4], in some of the year-long programs we have here, is how to be good listeners in conversation. We have people form dyads, small groups, and I introduce it to them: this is not a talking exercise. They're going to be given a prompt to talk about, but it's a listening exercise. When it's your turn to talk, you're just giving other people a chance to listen. It's really a listening practice for all of us. The idea is that if it's a talking exercise, people are more likely to think about what they're going to say when it's their turn, and then they're not listening.

And I often tell people, when it's your turn to speak, only say one point. Say it well, but not with too long of a story. The idea is you want to offer one point so people have something to listen to, but so there's lots of time to hear what the one point the other people say is. Because if you hear what they say, when it comes back to you, you might say something that you never dreamt of before. If you're the first person and you have a 10-minute monologue in a 10-minute exercise, you'll never hear what they have to say, and you're probably telling people what you already know. But if you are brief, let other people be brief, and it comes back to you, you might have been influenced by what they said. It triggered something, a memory, an idea, and you find yourself now sharing something that's brand new.

So training people how to converse in ways so that the conversation becomes dynamic, something new starts being created rather than just repeating the old stories. Because it's so important that people know your story, that's important sometimes, but there's a whole other thing that I think would be really useful to learn: this art of staying in a dynamic conversation which requires being a good listener, knowing how to listen well, knowing how not to prepare and be caught in the reactions, and knowing how to speak from some deeper place inside when it's your turn to speak.

And to listen well, I think you're more likely then to be somewhat quiet inside so that you have access to some deeper source inside when it's your turn to speak, some newer understanding, as opposed to staying on the surface level of your life, the stories, the ideas, the opinions that you might have that people are so quick to want to tell.

So in the time of the Buddha, listening was so important. That was the medium for it all. And probably they didn't have to teach people how important it is to listen well because that's what there was. And so the close disciples of the Buddha, they are referred to in the ancient language as the listeners. Sāvaka^[5] means those who listened, and so that's how they're remembered. It's those people who sat with the Buddha and really listened, and they listened so deeply that they became the next generation of teachers.

So how do you listen that deeply? How are you really present? Some of this also relates to how you listen to a dharma talk. There are many ways of listening to a dharma talk. There are many ways of listening to a conversation, and it varies in context and varies in what's needed. In terms of a dharma talk, people go through phases of what they need to hear and how they need to listen, but at some point in practice, especially since we meditate before a dharma talk sometimes, listening to a dharma talk becomes an extension of the meditation. Rather than listening for information, you're listening for something deeper. You're listening for what can wash through you: ideas, the tone of voice, the pacing, the feeling in the room, more than the ideas.

I've had situations where I listened to a dharma talk where I felt radically changed by the dharma talk. I entered into a kind of a deep state of concentration, listened to it very calmly, and when I left, I realized I couldn't remember anything from the talk. I had listened well in that context. It taught me something. It connected me to something deeper than the ideas of the talk.

And other times it's the ideas that really spoke to me, and something went off, and something beautifully woke up in my mind: ideas, associations, and I became a different person. "Wow, I'd never thought of that before." And then I would go home and be thinking about it and working on it, mulling it over and digesting it. And that was the important thing.

But to hear that just now, I gave two different ways you might listen to a dharma talk. It's possible for you to reflect on this. There's a choice in listening to a dharma talk. It's not just sitting here to be entertained, you know, not just sitting here to be a passive recipient of something and sit back and judge what's happening and measure it against, you know, "I could be watching Netflix or something." But how is it that you're taking it in? How are you listening? How are you present in a way that's meaningful for you, important for you? What would be useful for you in how you listen to a talk?

One of the ways to listen well is sometimes to ask questions. Sometimes you can ask the person you're with questions to learn more. Sometimes it's the art of broad or open questions that just can be interpreted many ways because you want to just give the person lots of room to share what's important for them. It could be something like, "Oh, tell me more. Is there anything more you want to say about that?" That's a very broad question, and so it gives them permission to find for themselves what's important, rather than you asking for the most precise detail.

Or, "Oh, that seems really important to you. How is that important?" Or, "Wow, there was something really profound or significant that happened for you. What are the values that went into that decision?" Sometimes you can ask deepening questions. If you ask, "What are the values?" or "How is that meaningful for you that you went to the wedding?" that's a little bit different than "What clothes did the couple wear?" That's nice, but, "What was meaningful for you about being there?" You get a whole different answer.

What are you listening for? You're listening for the humanity of the person and the fullness, the heart of the person. What are the emotions that are underneath the words? What's behind there? What's their background? What's going on? When is that intrusive? When is that going into someone's private life? And when is it welcomed? And how do you listen? You ask questions about that. "How are you feeling about that today?" That's very broad. They probably won't feel like you're probing. And then they might say, "Okay," [Laughter] and that's all they want to say. Or they might say, "Wow, thank you for asking. I didn't realize that I was still anxious. I didn't realize. Thank you, now I understand myself better."

To listen well, to listen with clarity, is to think of listening as an extension of meditation, or to think of learning the art of listening as an art to learn. I suspect a lot of people in our culture have never even thought that listening is a skill that we can get better at. And so now that you've heard this, for some of you, how can you imagine learning that skill, developing it? There are books on listening. There are articles about listening. How would you become a better listener?

And how is it that listening well directly benefits you as a meditator? Is there something you can learn in listening that really supports the strengthening of your capacity to be really aware when you meditate? Listening cultivates mindfulness. Listening cultivates compassion. Listening can cultivate empathy and care. And all those also can be cultivated in meditation. We're cultivating mindfulness, we're cultivating concentration, we're cultivating compassion and care as we're present for ourselves. What you learn in really listening well to others, can that translate to how you meditate better? And as you learn how to meditate better, what is it you can learn from that for how to be a better listener?

Tea and Conversation Practice

So those are my thoughts for today, partly because we have a tea and partly after all this I should give you a chance to try. So we'll take maybe five or six minutes for those of you who would like to turn to one or two people next to you and introduce yourself. It's tea, so it's nice for people to say hello and people who are new to be welcomed.

If you don't want to do this, you can certainly go when I finish speaking, or come back for the tea if you want, or walk around the block. Some people choose not to be part of these discussions, but they stay in the room meditating or sit quietly with their eyes closed, and that's actually quite beautiful, too. I think of it as supportive of everyone else. It's sometimes a quite lovely way of being present, to hear all the happy sounds of talking around and not participate. Whatever you're comfortable with.

The suggestion is that you share one point, one example of a time in your life that you felt well listened to, and say a little bit of what that was like, and have a little conversation back and forth about that. Then another person can have a turn to talk. And remember, be brief and see how much you can go around and around and see what that does for each other. Is that okay? And as you form little groups, one or two people, look around, make sure no one's left alone, because sometimes accidentally people coincidentally look in the opposite direction and one person's left there sitting like, "What do I do now?" So let's be inclusive. I'll ring a bell when it's time to stop and we'll come back and talk a little bit more as a group. So please.

(Conversation Practice)

So that felt like a lot of energy. So, what would happen if we take a minute to sit quietly and for you to check in with yourself, and I'll ask you a question at the end of the minute.

(Quiet reflection)

If there's a question during this little quiet time right now for you to reflect on: In what ways were you a good listener in that conversation? And in what ways could you have been a better listener?

Okay, thank you.

Q&A

So, anything any of you would like to say at this point as we have just a few minutes left? A short comment, anything about listening or the talk or this discussion you had.

Speaker 1: Uh, thanks Gil for the talk about listening. It was really helpful. I'm wondering though, what do you do with all your feelings, thoughts, and everything you want to say? Like, especially if you're catching up with a friend or something's on your mind that's bothering you, what would you recommend? I mean, this is stuff that comes up for me a lot when I try to meditate, too. It was just all these thoughts and discomfort, you know.

Gil Fronsdal: So there's lots one could possibly say because the question you're asking is a really good one and it's like the tip of the iceberg for how to be a human being. [Laughter]

So there's a lot I could say, but I'll say something now. One thing is, with certain friendships, you can say what's happening for you. You know, "I have all this stuff inside I feel like I want to share. I know we don't have much time and I'm not expecting to, but I just want to let you know this is what's inside of me right now." Just so they know too, it's shared. "Oh, okay, that's the situation and my friend is this way. I know her better now and this is good." So just share what's happening, and who knows what will happen once you share what's going on underneath you with your friend. That allows something new to unfold that neither one of you could have ever imagined. You might try sharing it, and the person says, "Oh, I realize I can cancel my next meeting and I want to hear. Let's go for a walk and I'll really listen." Who knows what will happen.

That's the first thing. The second thing is, try to listen, like in meditation, try to listen or feel what's behind all of it. If you're able to go deep inside, is there a common denominator? Is there a common source for all these different things you want to say and do? It might be that they all trace back to one primary feeling or motivation or impulse. And what is that? Can you really discover what that is? And if you do, does that change what the conversation is going to be about or change what's important for you?

Speaker 2: Great. Thank you. Um, the question that's on my mind is about discernment. So, when you're listening to someone, how do you have good discernment? What type of a filter is useful to have good discernment?

Gil Fronsdal: Well, I would like to propose that the best answer I could give is to keep asking yourself that question. And there are two reasons for replying to that. In some ways it's unsatisfying that I should answer that way, but I want to explain why it's wise. One is that there is no one answer to that question. But I think a really wise life is a life that keeps asking that question. So in each situation you're oriented towards discovering what it means here and now. So I love it that you have it. So keep asking it. And then the question is, how you're discerning depends on if you understand the situation well. Is it the situation that's important, or is it you? And if you know the difference between those two, it might help you understand the answer to your question.

Speaker 3: Thank you, Gil, for the talk. The question I had was, I heard you say that if you're having a long monologue of yourself talking, you're not really hearing the other person. And I'm wondering about the opposite of that. What if the other person has a really long monologue [Laughter] and they're holding you hostage? Any tips for how to handle that?

Gil Fronsdal: Yes. [Laughter] So again, it depends a lot on who the person is. If it's a really good trusted friend, you might point that out. You know, "I've been listening now. Thank you. It sounds like this is really important for you, and I want to check in with you right now and make sure that we're on track, because I'm beginning to zone out. It's been 20 minutes now [Laughter] and we're close and important, and can we take this into account and how should we go forward now?"

So if it's really good, you can do that. Some people you can't do that with; they would get angry, they would be upset. So you have to be discerning. Sometimes you have to be clever and insert something that changes the direction of the conversation. And sometimes it's as basic as, "Excuse me, I hear you, but I really need to go to the bathroom." [Laughter] And you don't have to tell them what you're going to do in the bathroom! [Laughter] You're just catching your breath and making a pause in the conversation.

So there are all kinds of strategies of what to do. But one of the really good things to do always is when someone is talking a lot, try to listen carefully to why they might be doing this, what is going on deeply for that person. Because everyone has depth. Everyone has a background that's probably been difficult. Everyone has been shaped by the life they've lived. And so try to listen more deeply. Why is this person going on and on? What's the need this person has?

Recently I had that situation in a social situation with someone. I just stayed and listened and participated, asked questions and commented. I was kind of surprised at how long this person was going to go on and on and change the subject and this thing and this thing, and it's all about the person's life. And I kind of thought, "What's going on here?" I realized, "Oh, this person actually, I don't think spends a lot of time with friends, so doesn't really have a chance to actually share their excitement about their life." So then I relaxed more. "Okay, I'll just go along with this."

Speaker 3: Thank you so much. And I also loved the suggestion about seeing things through the lens that that person is suffering. That's really helpful.

Gil Fronsdal: Yeah. And then we can maybe be more patient or understand. And very occasionally you have to be wise about this. You listen to something and then you're able to say, "Oh, it seems like you're having a hard time." And that opens the door. Just a comment: "Oh, yes. Oh yes, it's true." And then they don't need to tell you the story so much anymore. Now you're into what's more going on.

Anyway, so at least in Buddhism, the ideal is we want to care for everyone. Everyone's important.